Can places replay past events

D B Sweeney · Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:45 am Post subject:

Accurately-recorded first-hand testimonies are not hearsay. Inn Spectre

Ok Inn Spectre - give us some examples of investigations where someone was on hand with pen and paper or Dictaphone where first hand testimonies to ghost sightings were accurately recorded in real time, ideally supported by independent verification by other people on that team and/or (I know this is asking a bit much) by another team investigating the same location on another date that was able to corroborate the previously witnessed phenomenon.

Don't write a cheque with your finger that you can't cash with proof.

Very Happy

DB

Inn Spectre · Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 118

Inn Spectre · Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 118

D B Sweeney

It occurs to me that this would be a good a place to recount a report relating to the phenomenon in question, to which I had no hesitation in giving complete credence.
I heard these first hand reports on the same occasion from both parties involved.
One man was a primary school teacher who lived in a tied cottage just across the road from the school. Over time he grew accustomed to seeing the figure of an old woman floating through the ground floor of the cottage; not so one visiting boy who was so shocked at seeing her that he refused ever to return.
The cottage was eventually demolished and replaced by a pair of 'local authority' dwellings, one of which was and still is occupied by the other man. He would see the same figure moving through the new house. He said that whenever he saw the figure he had wanted to communicate with it just by saying 'Stop' or something similar, but had never brought himself so to do.
When I referred to a late nineteenth century map of the area, it revealed that the site of both houses overlays the position of the driveway of an earlier house that stood in the area prior to its suburbanisation.
We all know that countless 'residual hauntings' of this type have been witnessed, many displaying characters from as far back as Roman times if not earlier. We seem to have no idea how this phenomenon works, but clearly it can survive the immediate environment that existed during the period that it represents.
Inn Spectre

Interesting, impressive story Inn and at face value it seems watertight. However it raises a number of questions.

I heard these first hand reports on the same occasion from both parties involved.
Did the two parties who independently witnessed this residual old lady know each other, more specifically did the second person know the story of the 'haunting' via the first person or via general grapevinage?. If there's the slightest doubt that the story could have been common knowledge then its validity is diminished considerably.

seeing the figure of an old woman floating
Did both parties describe in any detail (hopefully far more than 'an old woman') the woman in terms of hair, dress, height etc, were there consistencies in their reports or was she too vague to make out?. What I'd term an old woman and what my local Butcher would describe as an old woman are two different things unless we were describing the same person. If both witnesses just described her as 'an old woman' this would tend to weaken the sighting further and probably cast doubt on their value as credible observers.

not so one visiting boy who was so shocked at seeing her that he refused ever to return.
Without corroboration from the visiting boy preferably with a description matching that of our two existing witnesses this is just anecdotal possibly added as embellishment.

the site of both houses overlays the position of the driveway
So presumably the residual old lady is residual in the driveway not the house?. It might be slightly more credible if the two council properties were built on the site of the house but I'd guess you'd link the haunting to the house if the properties were built off the drive in the grounds as well. I think this is clutching at straws on your part Inn Spectre. Even if local records show (for example) that Old Annie Baxter was run over and killed by the Squires Coach and four on the driveway it wouldn't necessarily mean that the phenomena witnessed was the residue of Annie Baxter leaking into the present. It'd make the story more interesting as a story but evidentially it would be merely circumstantial.

We all know that countless 'residual hauntings' of this type have been witnessed, many displaying characters from as far back as Roman times

I've no doubt people see things that they class as residual hauntings, probably because they're believers in the first place and haven't considered that any other explanation could be responsible for what they saw. Didn't 'residual hauntings' feature in Most Haunted on nearly every episode?. That programme was hardly a paragon of scientific investigation was it?. If the reference to the 'Roman Times' residual haunting refers to the one in the cellar in York - unfortunately that sighting has more holes in it than my chip pan.

We seem to have no idea how this phenomenon works
If it exists at all you're quite right there which is why gadget investigators who use EMF meters etc are as likely to detect ghosts with the contents of a fruit bowl as with the various electronica originally designed for completely different uses and applications.
If we do know how it works - we do so because we understand how flawed witness testimony can be, how poor we are as observers and the fact that memory is a constructive process, then the application of logic and a wider understanding human perceptive abilities combined with cognitive psychology will give us a more accurate insight than going to the default position of 'ghost it was'
as the most obvious answer.

but clearly it can survive the immediate environment that existed during the period that it represents
Clearly it ain't clear because there's no evidence other than anecdotal to support your contention there. You'd think that by now (given the amount of 'ghost hunters' out there armed with night vision and more gadgets than Tandy) there'd be one half credible bit of footage of a residual stone tape type haunting?.But there's not - why might that be?.

You've admitted that you don't know how it works and given the fact that your proof that it does work consists entirely of stories I'd say is a pretty weak argument for residual hauntings.

DB

Inn Spectre · Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 118

D B Sweeney · Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:58 am Post subject:

I doubt that the haunting was part of any local folklore,
But you don't know for definite do you? so the story could have been common knowledge and this could have influenced either accounts.

I'm not going to accept that even with prior knowledge anyone is going be be psychologically influenced to that extent.
Cultural and local anecdotal influences have a far greater effect than you imagine. Where do you think we get the image of a ghost in a white sheet from?. We're all influenced to a certain degree whether we admit it or deny it.

They didn't exactly compare notes in detail but each agreed with the other's description, and from the way the conversation started I was sure this was not the first time that they had discussed the matter
So you admit that they exchanged accounts before they related the story to you?. In the telling and re-telling they could have aligned their stories into one mutually definitive account without even realising they were doing so, discarding some details, adding others until they both have the same details. Have you heard of Folie a deux Inn Spectre?.

I'm afraid there comes a point where you simply have either to believe what people are telling you or that they should be ignored for life, since there's no viable middle ground.
I certainly don't think accounts such as the one you've related should be dismissed or ignored Inn Spectre nor should they be accepted as gospel which is what you appear to be doing. They should be examined and all possibilities should be explored not just your conclusion that this is definitive evidence of a residual haunting which it quite clearly is not. If this is representative of the way you conduct all your investigations then I'm sorry to say but you're going about them in the wrong way Inn.
There is a viable middle ground and that will only be reached when you go beyond accepting these stories at face value and consider, investigate and then weigh up the most likely rational conclusion based on what you've uncovered. As I see it you've heard a story and because you've unearthed a bit of information about a house and driveway being on the site you've added two and two together to make a very residually haunted 6.

All I meant by that is that the figure is moving along the track of what is known to have been a causeway, which I think adds credence to the reports.
Did you establish a correlation between the reported direction of travel of the ghost (presumably either up or down the previously existing driveway) and the actual location of the driveway (ie north to south, east to west etc) in relation to the house in order to determine if the ghost was floating up or down the driveway as this would lend credence to your theory and their stories.

Sorry if I seem to asking a lot of questions and I probably seem fixated on details but when accounts like this are posted without adequate initial investigation it's often left to others to get the necessary details that allow people to form an opinion on what might be going on in the minds and houses where events are claimed to occur.

DB

SpectralIllusion · Joined: 16 Dec 2009 Posts: 47 Location: Lincolnshire UK

No definitely not this idea/explanation is pure nonsense. People can believe and find reasons for anything no matter how stupid and bizarre if they want.
However i am not disputing the fact people have heard and seen things unusual as i have myself but the cause i believe to be something radically different.
Anyway how can you believe bricks and mortar or stone whatever it may be can actually store recordings and play them back. It's absurd!

Inn Spectre · Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 118

D B Sweeney · Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:51 pm Post subject:

Inn Spectre · Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 118

D B Sweeney · Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:04 am Post subject:

'Nowhere have I claimed this phenomenon to be true' Inn Spectre Nov 16th

'but clearly it can survive the immediate environment that existed during the period that it represents' Inn Spectre Nov 14th

Clearly your post on November 14th states that the phenomena can survive - that's a pretty convincing endorsement of truth Inn IMO.

DB

D B Sweeney · Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:00 am Post subject:

Hi Inn,

Please don't think I'm having a go at you. I'd look at anyones posts in the same way and respond in exactly the same way. For what it's worth I think you're genuinely looking to get answers but IMO your logic and methodology is a bit flawed.
In my posts I'm not having a dig at you, actually I respect you for coming back and posting counter replies - despite my disagreement with them.

IMO there's a helluva lot of bullshit in the paranormal field and if people who come onto the many forums that deal with the subject don't get an alternative point of view then the bullshit will carry on influencing, frightening and generally promoting silly, illogical beliefs.

DB

flossy · Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:12 am Post subject:

nothing wrong with bit of a debate as long as it stays friendly, which im sure it will Wink

D B Sweeney · Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:25 am Post subject:

Debate is great. It leads us to avenues of thought that we might never have considered which is why a website that's composed of 'bleevers' is not going to advance the subject.
People like myself, Inn and GWRIP who post, counter post and debate are the beating heart of forums like this Flossy. I may not agree with Inn Spectre but I certainly respect his views. I'm not sure I agree with him wanting to kill Yvette Fielding though Shocked

DB

flossy · Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:21 am Post subject:

i'd have top agree with you there lol
Yvette Fielding's death wouldnt achieve anything, unless of course she came back to haunt us Shocked

lol